RE: Genealogy Enquiries - 6

thanks phil will try that.

Lynn

have googled randwick and there is so much information and history sources, quite interesting.

steph

Thanks Steph and for spending the time on this.

I was also coming up with Randwick and wondered if it was a District Area in which Bishops Cleeve was included.

I think what you have found Steph is possibly another branch of the family.
The Charles Holder of Bishops Cleeve who married Martha Hone in 1810 had two sons that I know off - but I don't know if they had any other children.

They had a Henry Holder and a Charles Holder
Henry Holder - born 1811 unfortunately doesn't fit into the family that you so kindly looked up
Charles Holder - Don't know if he was older or younger.

Henry Holder married in 1837 and at some stage went to live in Stoke Orchard before moving on to Malvern.
Charles Holder, later lived in Elmstone, Hardwicke.

If we find anything else, great, If not, I'll join one of the ancestery sites for the winter and would be pleased for any guidence or views on, as to which one to join.

Shall Google Randwick this morning.

Thanks again, Lynn.

Steph,
I should have said that Bishops Cleeve, Gloucestershire, - Stoke Orchard - and Elmstone Hardwicke are just about 5 to 6mins apart.
Lynn.

Hi Lynn

could this be them,

1851 henry hoder born 1811 bishops cleeve
wife maria holder 1811 born in stourport
john charles hoder born 1838/39 birmingham
martha 1841 birmingham mary cadwalder 1826 servant
ann brookes
henry oliver
wm swann
ben jones

iving at 87 or 89 coleshill street, bishops ryder, birmingham henry was a licensed victualer. atho at the top of the page there is a publican.

can 't seem to find them on the 1841 census.

if you try rootschat, glos section someone will be able to help you. apparenty glos have most of their records on line and are very organised. i had a lot of help with tewkesbury.

coud henry be a son of the charles i gave you yest. he called his first son john charles and their second daughter is called martha. could be a coincidence.

will keep looking

steph

Steph,

This is the right Henry and fills in a few gaps - where did you find this lot. - Are you able to send me the link ? - Exciting.

Henry doesn't fit in with date of being born in the family you found for Charles Holder so there must have been another Charles Holder who married Martha Hone that would have been Henrys father.

Great help, Steph.

Lynn.

Hi Lynn

I found it on ancestry. i usually take a month at a time subscription with ancestry for all records it is £12.00, they are quite good about you cancelling it afterwards.

trouble with census transcriptions is that they get transcribed wrong. holder strangely is a common name in the gloucester area, with a lot of charles and richards. strange how names seem to congregate in certain areas.

also have looked at glos records, so much there, and the clerk to the bishop cleeve parish council is a mrs b holder. bishop's cleeve is in the north of the county not far from cheltenham so a bit further away from randwich which is nearer to stroud, could be older relatives, not sure. genesreunited kept saying 'no records found' and yet i had got them on ancestry, these sites are so annoying. a cousin of my dads, now in their seventies did a lot of our family but actually went to london to the then somerset house and did it manually, so they got so much correct information.

will keep looking for you but as i say try roots chat (have you been on there before).

steph

Thanks Steph,

You have given me lots of ideas so shall start piecing them all to-gether and will also look up Roots Chat, and shall join the Ancestery site, defnitely for the winter months, so as to get the full benefit from it.

Lynn.

Hi Lynn

yes, it is so addictive, i am still in my dressing gown, must go and have a shower and do some potting up.

the only charles holder i v come across on genes and ancestry is born in cleeve in1832, 19 and an apprentice baker, winchcombe st. cheltenham working for edward caldicott. he is a bit older than henry but it is stil possible he is charles and marthas.

will keep plugging

steph

Hi Steph,

This Charles, If born in Bishops Cleeve 1832 and Henry born 1811 This may be possible - 21yrs difference and possibly LOTS of children in between.

It is said that the father was a butcher or a farmer, in Bishops Cleeve.

I shall concentrate on Charles Holder married Martha Hone in1810 and see if I can find out anywhere who would have been living in their house in the following years.

Later on the son Henry was defnitely a landowner when he got as far as Malvern and then on to having Holders Concert/Music Hall and Holders Midland Brewery in Birmingham.
I have traced lots of things on these two subjects and am now just trying to trace back to their ROOTS and were they actually came from - like this that has been said - A Charles Holder/Martha Holder - Bishops Cleeve - a butcher or a farmer.

Mike, Where are you - you are good at this sort of thing - any ideas.!!

I've got furthur than you to-day Steph - Have a sundress on expecting to be in the garden, doing things, and now I've left it so long that the sun has gone in.!!!! Mabe I haven't got furthur as you may now be out there and I'm still indoors.

Yes, it is all very addictive but hasn't it been so nice to meet such lovely helpful people on Brummies Talking. They have all so willingly given me so much information, Fantastic site.

Lynn.

hi Lynn

yes, such a lovely site. well i did get a shower and dressed and went into to town because we have a market on a saturday (I live in redditch, worcs.) so i wanted to buy some poppies and violas to do the baskets for winter and such. the plant man was not there today. i some times pop over to evesham, they have a fab market on a saturday and if you get it right in the month it is a farmers market. one day when i was there an elderly gent was trying to cross the busy road i said could i help you, he said ' i m only going over the road for some roe from the chip shop. i said sit down and i ll get it for you. i did and took it back to him and we had a good chat, he had had a market garden for years but his sons had taken it over but he still came in and ran the stall once a month. i obviously would not take any money for just going over the road, but he said i must give you something and he produced half a dozen fresh eggs that had been collected that morning. i accepted and my where they nice. i love it in evesham its not as crowed as stratford and on a sunday there is a band playing by the river in the band stand and lovely park for the children.

i realise these are the holders that ran the concert/music halls in birmingham. i will do a bit more digging. i get frustrated with ancestry some times because i know they have parish records but i find it difficult sometimes - i put in a certain county and then have to trawl through london etc. i have put a thread on rootschat (gloucester section) to see if anyone down there can throw anything up.
steph

hi Lynn

just got this off rootschat.

a martha hone was born in bishops cleeve on 12march 1786, parents edward and elizabth

however, she died 1814 3july at the age of 28, martha of stoke orchard.

so will try to find out if charles re married.

steph

Hi Lynn

right we know henry went on to birmingham etc. charles i would have thought would have been the first born taking his fathers name, but there again with martha dying in 1814 could it have been in child birth?

have put some threads out.

I think i v found charles snr married again to a sophia. 1861 charles is 82 born 1779 bishops cleeve, wife sophia 67 born 1794 hintley mom, she is 17yrs younger than him. he is a retired farmer.

steph

Hi Steph,

In your 2nd last message there does that mean that - Martha - at the age of 28yrs died in - Stoke Orchard.
----------------------------------I wonder if they then lived in Stoke Orchard.

Charles Holder/Martha Hone were married 1810 At present I just know of two sons:- Henry born1811 and Charles no date but defnitely a brother of Henry but then this Charles could have been a son from a 2nd marriage between Charles Holder/Sophia.

Your last dates in 1861 census add in very well with what I have of Charles dying in 1866.

Charles Snr / Martha married 22nd May 1810 - Could have had Charles first and Henry 21st Nov 1811 - It would have been pretty tight but possible - I agree that Charles should have been the 1st born and I hadn't thought of that.

Good thinkin' Steph - To-day, down South here looks very dull - Horsham, W. Sussex. - Never know, might clear up later.!!

Lynn.

Posted by mollymandysb

---

Hi Lynn

I found it on ancestry. i usually take a month at a time subscription with ancestry for all records it is £12.00, they are quite good about you cancelling it afterwards.

trouble with census transcriptions is that they get transcribed wrong. holder strangely is a common name in the gloucester area, with a lot of charles and richards. strange how names seem to congregate in certain areas.

also have looked at glos records, so much there, and the clerk to the bishop cleeve parish council is a mrs b holder. bishop's cleeve is in the north of the county not far from cheltenham so a bit further away from randwich which is nearer to stroud, could be older relatives, not sure. genesreunited kept saying 'no records found' and yet i had got them on ancestry, these sites are so annoying. a cousin of my dads, now in their seventies did a lot of our family but actually went to london to the then somerset house and did it manually, so they got so much correct information.

will keep looking for you but as i say try roots chat (have you been on there before)

hi steph is it only twelve quid for a month on ancestry then....genes charge twenty....think i will have a look.....

steph

---