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Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#1 by winkle , Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:25 pm

Just to deviate slightly from the Pubs Thread, and concentrate on one area, I've always been fascinated by those famous Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Markets of my dad's era. Mainly because that's where he spent most of his time. So I did lots of reading and copying, and would like your comments and big help in naming some of the ones I got lost with. One of the buggerations of this research is of course name changes, but let's start in the 1940s (and perhaps move backwards later to the Victorian era, when this really causes problems). First up below is a Map of the area I'm concerned with. I've marked the Pubs in yellow (very pale, sorry) and numbered them 1-24. the list is self explanatory, and here's the plea for help!!! Photos, corrections, and any additions would be gleefully accepted. There are one or two blanks, and more than a few queries. Hope you like this game...I bet we can post photos of ALL of them when and if required. Can't we Phil?

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BULL RING / MARKET PUBS 1940s

1 SWAN HOTEL, Swan Passage
2 ? COMET, High Street
3 BELL INN, 7 Phillips Street
4 BOARD INN, Phillips Street / High Street
5 WOOLPACK HOTEL, 8-9 Moor Street
6 TAMWORTH ARMS, 5 Moor Street
7 PHOENIX HOTEL, 3 Park Street
8 ? RED LION, Bull Ring
9 ROYAL GEORGE, 143 Digbeth / Park Street
10 ? CASTLE AND FALCON, Digbeth / Deritend
11 TALBOT, Moat Lane
12 ST MARTINS HOTEL, St Martins Lane
13 ? WAGON & HORSES and/or CROWN, Edgbaston Street
14 ?? Worcester Street / Bell Street
15 ? LEICESTER ARMS / COACH AND HORSES, Bell Street / Lease Lane
16 SYDENHAM HOTEL (CRITERION), Edgbaston Street / Pershore Street
17 DROVERS ARMS, Smithfield Street / Bradford Street
18 BIRMINGHAM ARMS, 1 Moat Row / Sherlock Street East
19 CRITERION (BROOK VAULTS), Jamaica Row
20 ? HOP POLE, Upper Dean Street / Pershore Street
21 BLACK SWAN INN, Bromsgrove Street / Market Street
22 NEW INN, 191- 194 Bromsgrove Street
23 ?? Jamaica Row
24 CROSS KEYS, 91 Jamaica Row / Sherlock Street

Thanks


winkle  
winkle
Posts: 98
Date registered 02.22.2011

Last edited 09.03.2012 | Top

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#2 by phil ( deleted ) , Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:25 pm

Winkle

The pubs at 14 would be the Grand Turk, 23 the Smithfield Arms, 10 the Castle & Falcon was in Meriden St. I think I could do you a photo of them all with the exception of the Castle & Falcon. I can do all the rest with a couple of difficulties The Swan (a painting of the original one) The Grand Turk (from afar) as far as all the rest go no problem.

I can't immediately if you have missed any but knowing how thorough you are I doubt it, but I'll have a look and see if I can come up with anything.

phil

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#3 by winkle , Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Brilliant Philip. Were the others I queried OK then? If not Castle and Falcon, what, any suggestions? there were so many in Digbeth! Interesting narrative from Jo McKenna, which I'm sure you've seen...

And photos of The Grand Turk and the Leicester Arms would be cool. My Swan Hotel one is this oldie...which I'm sure I nicked from you in another life...yours sounds brilliant, ptretty please?

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winkle  
winkle
Posts: 98
Date registered 02.22.2011

Last edited 09.03.2012 | Top

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#4 by winkle , Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:58 pm

Ha! found a pic of the Castle and Falcon. Before and after. From Ted Rudge and Keith Clenton's "Digbeth, Deritend and Highgate Through Time" Series...voila...No 10 solved.

[[File:Castle and Falcon .jpg|none|auto]]


winkle  
winkle
Posts: 98
Date registered 02.22.2011

Last edited 09.03.2012 | Top

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#5 by phil ( deleted ) , Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:37 pm

Winkle

It just shows doesn't it, I have that photo though not from that book. The trouble is I don't know what I'm looking at half the time as I have so many photos now.

phil

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#6 by phil ( deleted ) , Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:07 pm

Winkle

Sorry mate didn't I say I could find no record of a Leicester Arms or Coach & Horses in Bell St or Lease Lane and here is my photo of the Grand Turk which you can just see behind the fish & poultry market on Bell St at the corner of Lease Lane.


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Last edited Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:26 pm | Top

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#7 by winkle , Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:03 pm

Quote: phil wrote in post #2
Winkle

The pubs at 14 would be the Grand Turk, 23 the Smithfield Arms, 10 the Castle & Falcon was in Meriden St. I think I could do you a photo of them all with the exception of the Castle & Falcon. I can do all the rest with a couple of difficulties The Swan (a painting of the original one) The Grand Turk (from afar) as far as all the rest go no problem.

I can't immediately if you have missed any but knowing how thorough you are I doubt it, but I'll have a look and see if I can come up with anything.



Cheers Phil. I am a bit puzzled avout the Bell Street pubs. I think I may have them the wrong way round?

Here's what I have
14 GRAND TURK, Worcester Street / Bell Street
15 ? LEICESTER ARMS / COACH AND HORSES, Bell Street / Lease Lane

Now in the shot of Bell Lane Fish Market you posted, as you say, we can just see the edge of the Grand Turk on the corner of Lease Lane. My pic below from Patrick Baird's 'Bull Ring' Book clearly confirms it thus.

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So No 15 is the Grand Turk - and the old Freeth's Coffee House/Leicester Arms/Coach and Horses site. That was definitely stated to be at the corner of Bell St - Lease Lane in about three books on the subject.

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So that would make the corner pub in Worcester Street and Bell Street...GOK. It is captured here I think, on this old print, but GOK what it was in 1940...any further thoughts Maestro?

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winkle  
winkle
Posts: 98
Date registered 02.22.2011


RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#8 by phil ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:32 pm

Winkle

As this threads title concerns the 1940's I didn't look back as far the 1800's contrary to what you might have been told I wasn't around then. So I did a little prying around and came up with the fact that the Coach & Horses was at 35 Bell Street, now the Grand Turk was at 34 Bell Street on the corner of Lease Lane so I will suggest that either the Grand Turk replaced the Coach and Horses or that it was on the other corner and it disappeared under the Fish & Poultry Market.

phil

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#9 by mikejee , Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:43 pm

Phil
I think I can answer that question. The 1873 whites directory lists Bell St thus:
34 Wilkinson, George, victualler
Lease Lane
35 Willis, William, victualler


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RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#10 by mikejee , Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:45 pm

Better still, the 1872 directory lists
34 Grand Turk, Thomas Thompson
here is Lease lane
35 Coach & Horses, William Wills

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RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#11 by winkle , Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:57 pm

Quote: mikejee wrote in post #10
Better still, the 1872 directory lists
34 Grand Turk, Thomas Thompson
here is Lease lane
35 Coach & Horses, William Wills



OK, I agree that on my Map. No 15, The Bell St/Lease Lane pub is near the site of the old Leicester Arms, which begat the Coach and Horses, which begat the Grand Turk. I think we are all agreed on that, and that it was given as No 34-35 Bell St in the Trade Lists. But what about the pub further down on the corner of Worcester St - Bell Lane, next to the West Entrance to the Market Hall, which is No 14 and clearly marked and separate from the Grand Turk? What does the 1940s Electoral Rolls' say for that then? Any ideas Mike?

And whilst we are at it, anyone got any pics or info on the little alley next doorto this boozer marked POULTRY? Sounds like it could be a contender for Alleyways?

pps. Note to Phil. Found your Mark Lane on this Map of 1901 - continuation of Centre Row (another mystery to me), near Inge St and Vine St, off our beloved Ladywell Walk. More questions than answers. Again...

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winkle  
winkle
Posts: 98
Date registered 02.22.2011

Last edited 09.04.2012 | Top

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#12 by phil ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:22 pm

Winkle

That would be The Board Vaults at No 56 Worcester St as opposed to The Board Inn at 101 High St in the Bull Ring.


phil
Last edited Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:22 pm | Top

RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#13 by phil ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:28 pm

Here is a very poor photo of the Board Vaults.

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RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#14 by mikejee , Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:42 pm

The place marked 14 would seem to be what in 1890 was listed as 56 Worcester ST, The Board PH, and in 1873 as 55 The Board spirit vaults. McKenna states that these started in 1877, which is obviously incorrect, but I can find no record before 1873, so 1872-3 is probably about right. McKenna states that The board was renovated in 1873, and closed in 1960

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RE: Pubs and Inns of the Bull Ring and Market area from 1940s

#15 by phil ( deleted ) , Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:44 pm

Mike

I think most of everything closed in that area c1960.

phil

   

Craven Arms re-opening
Prince of Wales Pub Coleshill Street/Gem Street 1940

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