|Mainly For Brummies But All Are Welcome To Join In The Birmingham Fun & Chat|
This is the place where Brummies used to chat about Birmingham old and new along with anything else that interests us. We have Quizzes, Pizzas, Local History, News, Politics, Wedding Cake, Plum Pudding, Champagne, Easter Eggs and, above all, Respect for our fellow members.
Any one have any more information about this pub or any photographs. Thanks if you have.
The pub, a beerhouse, opened in 1839. Samuel Chatwin was the first landlord, and it was closed in 1912 by the justices . Landlords listedin the directories i have are:
1839-41 Samuel Chatwin
1845-58 John Harfield
1862-68 Wallis Mason
1872-73 Frederick Luckett
1876-92 Edwin Grocutt
1895-99 Daniel Parkes
1900 Henry Morris
1903 William Wright
1904 Herbert H.Cooper
1905 William Henry Welsh
1908 Mrs Florence Leah Rogers
1910-12 John Holmes
Thanks for that. What was closed by the justies mean. I have a lot to learn.
The justices are the people who award and renew the licence for the pub. They could refuse to renew because of the character of the licensee, or trouble at the pub. In this case, because a nearby pub was also closed at the same time and awarded compensation, I think it was part of a general policy to reduce the number of pubs in the inner city, and thus reduce drunkenness. It was usually the smallest pubs with the worst facilities that were removed. There was a scheme to partially recompense the owners by a levy on other houses. this presumably was where the money compensation mentioned above for a nearby pub came from. I do not know whether this pub recieved any compensation ,as McKenna does not say.
What I have is a solicitor's letter - Archibald S. Bennett, the Solicitor
It says :-
Messrs. Holder's Brewery Limited
The Birmingham Property Company Limited
Apl.5 To Appreciation, Craven Arms, Gough Street, on closing Dog & Partridge, Ellis Street - #£162.10.0
#Payable on date of closing, which will be advised you in due course
so, as you say it was being closed but Mike, do you understand the wording to do with The Craven Arms - The Craven Arms being a Holder Pub.
The answer is I don’t know for sure. However it undoubtably refers to the closure of the Dog & Partridge.. You say the Craven Arms was a Holders Pub. That was originally true , but , according to McKenna, it was taken over by M & B in 1896, and so in 1912 would have been owned by M & B. Therefore I would surmise that the letter from Holders is an application to The Birmingham Property Co (perhaps a subsidiary of M & B , or otherwise, if it is leasehold, the owners of the building from which M & B hold the lease) for money “in appreciation “ of giving up the licence,, and thus probably increasing trade to the Craven Arms, which is only just round the corner.
I thought that M & B didn't buy Holders out until 1919?
Make Love, Not War
Mike and Phil,
Mike, I shall try and find out when M & B took over but with the ammount that Mckenna has written - interesting.
I admit that the dates that I have noted would agree with Phil.
What I have is Holders Midland Brewery 1872 - 1919
Then M & B to 1923 when it was closed down - If I am correct!
Any photographs Phil, although if you have I'm sure you would have put them on.
Basically, what I need to do now is get a lot of my dates SORTED.
Thanks all again.
I am only going from McKenna, and don’t have any other source for the information. On one occasion previously I did find his date for the closure of a pub out by a few years (unless Kellys did not update properly , which is possible), so he could be wrong. Pubs did sell between breweries, though the Craven Arms was quite a big pub, so it is surprising if they did sell in 1896
I don't disagree with you as he says the same thing in Central Birmingham Pubs volume 2. Its only that I find it odd that Holders would sell such a good pub some years before they sold out, as it was obviously one they had built from scratch.
I hope you can read this which I have scanned from three different pages of the book.
Make Love, Not War
Yes, I can read it. Please can you tell me what book and page number you are in for this.
Sorry for calling you Anne, I've put it right now.
The book is published by Tempus Publishing Ltd ISBN No 0752441442 in 2006, in the Images of England Series and it's title is Birmingham Central Pubs Volume 2 by Joseph McKenna. It was priced at £12.99 then but I'm sure you can pick a copy up from Ebay or Amazon cheaper than that. Oh yes it was spread out over pages 105, 106 & 107.
Make Love, Not War
Thanks Phil, No worries.
Mike, when you mentioned McKenna, was that the same book that Phil has given me the name of and thanks for all the information that you have given me. When you tell me bits and pieces that leads me to thinking!! and looking up other bits and pieces. Lynn.
Yes , i was referring to the same book as Phil
I'll look it up on ?eBay and see if I can get a good price. Lynn.